good evening. i'm chris matthews down in washington. leading off tonight, a hot one. church, state, and presidential politics. the obama administration has gotten itself into a fight with the catholic church. at issue, its ruling that religious institutions, colleges, universities, and hospitals must provide full insurance coverage for birth control. the catholic church says it is being required to pay for something it views as morally wrong. is this an attack on religious freedom as some but not only republicans are arguing? or simply the effort of the

government to provide state-of-the-art health care. let's get to that one up front tonight. plus, you can hear the charges of hypocrisy. opted out when he saw how much money he can raise privately now, after denouncing super pacs, the obama campaign is embracing them. is mr. obama violating a principle? yes. will he get lots of money to fight of republican attacks? yes, again. and will he lose any votes because of it? probably no. also colorado, missouri, and minnesota hold contests tonight in the republican race for president. the big question tonight, can rick santorum pick off a state or two? maybe win two and give the romney campaign a new headache it doesn't need. and a big victory for supporters of gay marriage today. a federal appeals court, the ninth, in california has struck down the gay marriage ban in california known as prop 8. it's a narrow ruling and the case is likely to wind up in the supreme court. let me finish with the conflict between the right of

the government to protect what it views as the public health and the right after a religion to practice their moral believes. we start with that fight the obama administration has gotten itself into it. susan milligan, here we are. an issue we should never argue. this is the trickiest for me. let me state the fact and then we'll begin the discussion here. a new ruling by hhs as part of the new health care bill says if you're an organization and you provide health coverage, that should include coverage for contraceptives, but also devices such as iuds and morning after pills, which the catholic church views as abortion. most people understand these issues, especially catholics. the question is fundamental, you

and i are churchgoers of the catholic issue. we understand this issue. we heard it on the church altar two weeks ago. it stunned me when i heard it from the cardinal. my question, explain to non-catholics watching right now why the church opposes financing paying the insurance costs that covers, without co-pay, these methods? >> the church back in the '60s, they decided artificial contraception was immoral. it should be said that you don't see a lot of catholic families of 11 or 12 anymore. >> the new five in our family is three. >> we have three kids. three kids. we are what you see in the pews. agreed. >> and the church has this position. i think even among more liberal catholics, and i'm a liberal

catholic, there's a feeling that there should be some space for these religious organizations that provide so much social service work, health care. one in six patients go to a catholic hospital. they ought to have some religious liberty rights. the same way you wouldn't tell a quaker college you have to offer ratsi to your students. >> we saw this in nevada a very observant jewish student was allowed to vote after sun down allowances are made all the time. >> correct. i think the other piece of this is that a lot of people inside the church who supported president obama on health care reform said we're willing to find a compromise here, but you have to show us some sense of respect for this religious liberty right. and it's going to weaken all the progressives inside the bishops conference and inside the church that the administration was not willing to give anything on this issue. i think that's an important political fact here. >> susan? did you run for the global.

you know how hot it can be. >> i can certainly understand why this is a very difficult issue for the church. but we're talking about providing birth control in the church, we're talking about businesses of the church. >> like what? >> hospitals, universities. >> hospitals? >> you don't think a hospital is a business? >> i went to a college called holy cross. you went to church every day. every semester you had to take a course in philosophy and religion. so the idea that these schools are technically catholic is not an argument. or georgetown or villanova. they are all the same. >> is everybody sweeping the floors at georgetown? the point is not everybody working there is catholic. this is basic health care for them. and that's what it is. presumably -- >> what about the people -- 90% of catholics use birth control. why can't the church leave it up to the worker? >> a couple things. there are 28 state laws that provide for contraception. there are catholic institutions that already do cover contraception, either because

they choose to or because of collective bargaining agreements. >> do they include issues like plan b? >> i'm not sure. but there was a way to deal with this problem. my friend melissa rogers sort of pointed to hawaii. what you do is you do not force the religious institutions to pay for this, but you make available somehow through the policy at very low cost or no cost to individuals that they can opt in and get it themselves. >> who would that make happy? >> it would be a fair compromise. maybe the solution here is not to make anybody fully happy, but to say there are competing rights here. the right of the church for religious liberty. >> i'm not sure who started this fight. i know the church position because it's never changed. the obama position is let's get re-elected. and women, most democrats are women. the catholic study said on this issue, it's an emotional one for catholics.

let's listen. this guy is our scholar on catholic affairs. >> this has struck a kind of tribal nerve in catholicism. catholic church has been beaten up the last 10, 11 years. and i think catholics are tired of the government and others beating up on the church. that's, in my view, one of the political facts behind this rather extraordinary reaction across the catholic spectrum. >> see, to me, every woman should have a right to make decisions. men make them. women should make them with equal power and rights. obviously, that's not the issue. if that was the issue, i wouldn't be concerned about the way this developed. i think it's a question of the church. i guess i grew up watching

movies like "beckett" and "man for all seasons" and seeing the church and state go to war with each other and being told stories about the maccabees. the state requires you to eat pork. it gets to that interesting point to me which is frightening when the state tells the church what to do. then the church can no longer teach. if the church teaches it's morally wrong to use birth control, how can you make the teacher pay for birth control without losing their moral authority? that's what the church is afraid of. if they start financing under the law what they are called to do, they have any more credibility on the issues with it? that's the concern here. it's a political issue. i agree. if you can make them do it, they can't teach it anymore. i'm just asking. >> first of all, let's separate the fundamental faith that catholics have and god and in their religion from something like banning birth control,

which is a dictate of the church, and as you point out, 98% of catholics don't follow it. if you're talking about people who are working in an actual church, i don't think any one of us would say they have to pay for birth control. >> how is that different than a catholic college or hospital? >> at a university, i doubt every professor at georgetown university is catholic. >> not everyone. >> why should those people be discriminated against and be denied this basic health care coverage? >> isn't the co-pay the issue? >> it's a different standard. >> this is where it gets to be tricky. and i don't have the answer. >> compromise can get people covered without the church paying for it. but i think there's this catholic fear, and i think this is especially true of the liberals. one of the things we love about the church is the things the church does for people who are not catholic. the inner city kids who aren't catholic, the social service agencies who feed people who aren't catholic.

i think when you say it's only these rules, there's an exception only for churches themselves, only for cultic activities, but not this essential social justice work, i think that wrangles with catholics. >> many african-american kids who are protestant and remain catholic, nobody converts them. my mom's sister has been teaching special education children since 1944. they are teaching all kinds of kids. the republican presidential candidates have gone after the president. i'm not with any of these guys, just listening to them. they are talking about religious institutions being forced to issue birth control as part of their coverage. let's hear the political people. >> the administration said under obama care that religious organizations like schools,

catholic schools and hospitals and so forth have to provide for free contraceptives and free morning-after bills, abortive pills, for all of their employees in violation of the religious conscious of those organizations. this kind of assault on religion will end if i'm president of the united states. >> now newt gingrich, the issue. let's listen. >> there's been a lot of talk about the obama administration's attack on the catholic church. the fact is governor romney insisted that catholic hospitals give out abortion pills against their religious belief when he was governor. i think the massachusetts moderate finds it very hard to draw a sharp contrast with somebody who is an illinois radical. >> well, rick santorum vowed, he jumped in on the issue. let's listen to him today. >> this administration, as you can tell from my reaction, has been hostile to people of faith, particularly christians and specifically catholics. and i'm not going to stand for it. i'm going to call him out on it.

and they better change it. and if they don't, i'm going to make it an issue every day of the campaign. >> you heard that. susan? >> first of all, i don't think any one of these candidates would be seizing on this issue so strongly if the economy were doing ever so slightly better. i think at this point, the issue is still going to be jobs and the economy in this campaign. they want to insert a social issue. >> the obama administration has given tens of millions of dollars to catholic institutions. they work really well with a lot of them. that's why i don't understand why they picked this fight. because they have done a lot of stuff in cooperation with catholic social service issues. >> this is hotter than anybody thought it would be. until i heard it in church. susan mill began, thank you, dear. and thank you, dear. it is an old tip on the. what i got to break that. don't call people dear. coming up, after denouncing super pacs, the obama campaign

is now embracing them. nobody is going to care on left or right. republicans cry hypocrisy. the president's team has watched big money. they have learned they don't want to be demolished. equal playing field. the president and his people. that's ahead. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. big news here. in dubai, aluminum production in south africa, and the aerospace industry in the u.s.? at t. rowe price, we understand the connections of a complex, global economy. it's just one reason over 75% of our mutual funds beat their 10-year lipper average. t. rowe price. invest with confidence. request a prospectus or summary prospectus with investment information, risks, fees and expenses to read and consider carefully before investing. laces? really? slip-on's the way to go. more people do that, security would be like -- there's no charge for the bag. thanks. i know a quiet little place where we can get some work done. there's a three-prong plug. i have club passes. [ male announcer ] now there's a mileage card that offers special perks on united, like a free checked bag, united club passes, and priority boarding.

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shifted course. the white house announced they would give their blessing to the super pacs supporting the president's reelection, priorities usa. we have seen what kind of effect the super pacs have had in the campaign. tens of millions of dollars have been spent in the republican primaries to blanket the air waves. the white house said given that reality, they had no choice to get into the game. will it matter in the end? what effect will the super pacs have on the election this year? de de meyers was former press secretary for the president. and john feehery is with us as well. >> the bigger question is, there's a sense of panic in the obama administration. they have to start raising money. they have a super pac that's raised no money.

they worry this billion dollars they were supposed to have is not going to show up. the issue is the president is weak with the voters, even though he's doing better than mitt romney. >> if they let this game go the way it's been going in the primaries, with republicans raising zillions of dollars to put these dirt ball ads on the air, if he has to face that, defenseless without the super pacs. >> they saw not only the amount of money the republicans are raising, but the tenor of the ads being funded by those. a lot of them are directed at president obama already. millions more will be spent. >> let's look at some of the ads that have run in the primary. the pro-romney super pac, restore our future, blanketed the air waves, destroying newt gingrich in iowa. let's watch it. >> ever notice how some people make a lot of mistakes? >> i made a mistake. >> i made mistakes at times. >> so far, newt gingrich has

admitted his mistakes or flipped on teaming up with nancy pelosi, health care, iraq, attacking mitt romney and more. >> i made a big mistake in the spring. >> haven't we had enough mistakes? >> that seems to work. another anti-newt ad put out. let's watch that one. >> newt gingrich's attacks are called foolish, out of bounds, and disgusting. he has more baggage than the airlines. newt was fined for ethics violations. took $1.6 million from freddie mac. and co-sponsored a bill with nancy pelosi that would have given $60 million a year to autopsy program supporting china's brutal one-child policy. don't be fooled by newt's desperate attacks. >> i have seen negative ads. they are pretty good. remember the one from castro? he had supported funding for the imf. some of that money had got on to castro.

he is a castroite. these ads can be nasty. >> i am shocked that people do negative campaigning. the obama administration knows something about negative campaigning. they did more negative ads against john mccain in the last election because they had all the money. >> why didn't it seem that way? it seemed he ran an upbeat campaign. >> he didn't do the commercials here in d.c. he ran them elsewhere. they are smart to try to get it off the idea of being pure. there's a little hypocrisy. >> i look at karl rove. something like $50 million in different checks he's been able to raise. some of it super pac, some nonfunded ngo money. the power of these guys to raise money, obama has to get into the money game. he has to get into the negative advertising game? >> they played the game in 2008. they ran ads. one of the reasons the president came off as positive is he spoke

from his events very positive. that will contrast. >> romney has not sold himself. most people don't really like him. his negatives have gone up. he's destroyed his opponents. >> but he's paying a terrible price for it. he's not letting that happen just on the air waves. he's doing it from the stump as well. >> did he only spend how much in florida? >> let me give you a look at this. the campaign that mitt romney runs, it's not going to have an impact on barack obama. people know barack obama. this is going to be an election based on whether he's done a good job. i think he's in real trouble. i think he might lose the

election because he's not done a good job as president. >> let me tell you something. i'm going to remind you of something. romney has won great strength. he raised money. he has the lds money. he has connections in the finance world. it's enormous how much trust he has. they are on his side. they don't like regulation. they want all that stuff to their advantage. there's a lot of motive out there to kill obama politically. you know that. >> i think this is going to be decided -- >> they are going to be raising tons of money because it benefits from the defeat of obama. you know it does. >> the president and super pac has not raised a lot of money. the other is the democratic -- once we have a republican nominee and democrats get a load of who that is and it's a two-person race, you'll see the democratic money start to pour in. >> fundamental issue. people who watch this program take politics seriously. the way the thing works. the way you win elections and

lose them. they pay attention to that. do you think a grown person who is 18 years or older, male or female, do you think they will be moved by a tv ad? >> i don't. i think it's overrated. earned media getting people to pay attention. and things like this, when you talk about the last segment, the catholic church is going to be angry. >> you make a mistake in one of the three presidential debates. four hours to make a mistake and you make one mistake. you'll see it repeated over and over in the news. >> in the news media and also the paid ads. >> i think it has more of an impact of people who don't know who the candidates are. the presidential level is something where they know the candidates. >> i'm waiting to see what's going on now. a week before the election. the candidate looks up and sees the numbers and is down by three points.

now you can raise so much money in five minutes from your richest people. you get put on the air immediately. >> it's going to be last minute. >> you watch how much dirt ball goes on in this campaign at the end. you're dedemeyers, you're john feehery. watch how much dirt ball campaigning is going on in the end. up next, michele bachmann calls herself the perfect candidate. i think she's still in that trance. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc.

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interesting opinion on how the final four stack up. here's what she said in an interview with bloomberg's albert hunt last week. >> remain above the fray. but you said in almost a dozen debates with these people, you have a feel for them. let me ask you this it. who is the more conservative of these four candidates left? >> i was. i was the perfect candidate. when i went out there, america had their chance with the perfect candidate. any of our candidates are going to be acceptable to the american people and more than acceptable because right now, if you look at the gallup map that came out this week, president obama is in big trouble all across the country. >> there you have it. mirror, mirror on the wall who is the rightest of them all? i was the perfect candidate. and finally, so much for science. in the final push to rack up votes in today's contest, rick santorum took to the microphone to call out the obama administration for putting politics ahead of science on the

topic of global warming. you know what's coming now. let's listen. >> the most important thing we need to do, which is what this administration has not done, which is to use sound science, not politicized science. we saw it with global warming. an absolute travesty of scientific research that was motivated by politics. i for one never bought the hoax to suggest one minor factor of which man's contribution is a minor factor in the minor factor, is the determining ingredient in the sauce that effects the entire global warming and cooling is just absurd on its face. >> well, it's all a hoax, didn't you know?

all those phoney dinosaur bones led us to believe this evolution business. by the way it is 55 degrees today in washington and it's february. coming up, the republican race moves on to colorado, missouri, and minnesota. is tonight the night rick santorum breaks through? you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. ke suspension checks... what we have here is the multi-point inspection. every time a vehicle comes into a ford dealership you'll be presented with one of these. we check the belts, hoses... brakes. tires and the pressures... battery, all your fluids... exhaust system, transmission... we inspect your air filter... it gets done,it gets done quickly and it gets done correctly. the works. oil change, tire rotation and more: $29.95 or less after rebate - at your ford dealer. you're a doctor... you're a car doctor. maybe a car doctor... the two trains and a bus rider. the "i'll sleep when it's done" academic. for 80 years, we've been inspired by you. and we've been honored to walk with you to help you get where you want to be.

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i'm millissa rehberger, talks on payroll tax cuts are stalled. lawmakers can't agree to how to pay for them. captain of the shipwrecked "costa concordia" must remain under house arrest. an italian court refused a request from italian prosecutors seeking to jail him and attorneys who want him freed. and jerry sandusky's neighbors are worried about their children's safety. now back to "hardball."

a romney nomination would not be in the best interest of us winning the general election. and that we need to have a conservative alternative. and my feeling is that speaker gingrich has had his chance in the arena and came up short in florida and nevada. and now it's our turn hopefully to get a one on one in missouri, which we have. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was, of course, former pennsylvania senator rick santorum last night going after his republican rivals mitt romney and newt gingrich. there are three republican races today, minnesota, colorado, and missouri. gingrich is not on the ballot that last state. santorum is trying to portray himself as the conservative alternative. the romney campaign has taken

time to criticize the once-ignored santorum. they biting back against this guy. so just what threat does santorum pose at this point? does he really have a chance to knock off romney? tom tan credo and former presidential candidate recently endorsed rick santorum for president. mr. tan cred dough, thanks for joining us tonight. recently endorsed rick santorum for president. thanks for joining us tonight. i have to wonder why you're jumps in the race. give me the case. we talk politics on this show. how does he win? >> yeah. the primary or the general? >> how does he win the primaries? >> he's going to win the primary because he now has the momentum behind him. this is the right time to have it. others have had it in the past. i think it's now occurring. i think he's going to win tonight in minnesota and he's going to win in missouri. he'll come out in colorado at least second. if that happens here, where romney had 60% the last time, it will be a win for santorum.

the wind is at his back now. there is every reason to believe that it will only get better as time goes on. certainly, there's going to be a lot. the race is not over. look. you need 1,140-some delegates. governor romney has about 89. something like that. it's a long way from the finish line. >> is he willing to knock the guy's block off? i have a feeling that your new flavor of the month, rick santorum, is running for vp. and therefore, he really isn't running against mitt romney in any serious way, the way that newt is. freedom is just another word for nothing else to lose. he's willing to throw the frying pan at him. but your guy says i have to be nice enough they will consider me for veep when we get to tampa. >> i don't think so. i don't think that's it. i think what he's doing is

trying his best to avoid the kind of vitriolic campaign that was waged up to this point in time by the ex-speaker, and certainly, by romney. that has not helped anybody. it's not going to help going into the general election no matter who is the nominee, except for santorum, who has stayed above that fray. that has given him a lot of impetus. he hasn't been a part of that ugly aspect of the primary. >> romney did a lot of ugly himself. it was done by those super pacs that did the dirty work for him while he kept his fingernails clean. you know what the word cute means. here are some statements issued by the romney campaign yesterday about santorum. former minnesota governor tim pawlenty said, "rick santorum is a nice guy, but he's simply not ready to be president." here's santorum last night in response to the criticism. >> governor romney on that vitally important issue of obama

care is, in fact, the weakest candidate that we can put up. in fact, it takes a rallying cry issue that was the centerpiece of the 2010 election that motivated people to come out to vote and give us an electoral victory. mitt romney is uniquely positioned to give that issue away and weaken our chances to beat president obama. campaigns are about ideas. and on the ideas that matter most to the american public right now, he's on the wrong side. >> is it a fair shot, tom tancredo, that what romney has done is run a demolition campaign, destroying newt gingrich in iowa and florida, running negative ads while not offering something positive? to this day, we pay attention here. i haven't heard the romney plan for the next four years to get us out of the economic challenge we are in right now. do you think he's running

negative or positive campaign, romney? >> here's what i think that romney has been doing. that is setting the stage for a debate between him and obama who can best handle the economy. who has the best record for creating jobs and for, you know, essentially, increasing prosperity? i think romney feels, and i think rightly so, he can make a case for that. he's better at it than obama. hell, my dog is better at it than obama. there's no issue in terms of who is better in terms of the economy. but the question that i think santorum is asking is an important one. will the economy be the issue in the election? i mean, it is possible that we are going to see a decrease in unemployment. it's possible we'll see a little bit of growth in the economy. as that happens, it takes that issue away from the republican challenger. and then you better start talking about the other things that really matter. which view of america is right?

is it obama and the ducati -- or zuccotti park protesters? or is it santorum and, in fact, if you want to say it, the tea party people? i mean, which view of america is better? is it the obama view of the entitlement mentality he wants to increase or is it individual responsibility? that's the issues. >> congratulations. you deserve congratulations on the supposed iq of your dog. thank you. a heck of a dog. thank you for joining us. "the huffington post" has numbers coming out. howard fineman is an msnbc political analyst. it looks like he has a point there in touting santorum tonight. he might win in missouri and minnesota. take a look at the polls out today on the states voting today. santorum leads with 33% of romney's 24%. gingrich and paul are close behind. in missouri, santorum leads again 45% to romney's 32%. paul far behind.

romney is leading in colorado. it looks like the deal doesn't look done. >> no deal is done. the deal is not done for romney. the latest polls from gallop show him at 37%. there's a new reuters poll that shows him at 29%. in certain respects, mitt's run is going to be vivid. he's a bit like a giant hairball that the republican party cat is trying to cough up. they can't swallow it and they can't get rid of it. that's sort of the way he is. he's in front mathematically. but today is santorum's day. >> you know what a hairball smells like? go ahead. >> today is santorum's day. today is it. missouri is just a beauty

pageant. >> it's a headline. >> it is a headline. because newt gingrich isn't playing in missouri, santorum has a one on one. >> he might get two out of three. >> and i think what that does is prolong the race even further. in a way, it's beneficial to romney but screws newt gingrich and keeps things divide. mitt romney has been the last-man standing candidate from the very beginning. this is going to make it take even longer. if santorum wins a couple tonight, then that just prolongs the mathematical path to june. >> can santorum and newt gingrich together get over 50% to deny the nomination all the way to tampa to romney? >> i don't know the answer to that. don't forget ron paul is going to pick up delegates here and there. all three of them can get 50% in

theory. it's not like mitt romney is closing the deal. it doesn't quite feel like that yet. it just doesn't. if mitt romney can -- newt gingrich could win some states on super tuesday. >> the thing to watch every tuesday is does mitt get 50% anywhere? he won't get it everywhere. >> they were putting out press releases how he got over 50% in florida. that's the first place. up next, a big victory for supporters of marriage equality today. federal appeals court, the famous 9th circuit out west, strikes down california's ban on prop 8. this is a big one. one of the lawyers is joining us. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about how some companies like to get between ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 you and your money. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 at charles schwab, we believe your money should be available ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 to you whenever and wherever you want. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 which is why we rebate every atm fee worldwide. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 and why our mobile app lets you transfer funds, ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 execute trades, even deposit checks just by ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 taking a picture, right from your phone. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 so talk to chuck and put those barriers behind you.

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well, former senator bob kerry says he won't run for senate this year in his home state of nebraska, all but ensuring a republican win out there. democrats hope to recruit kerry to run for the seat held by retiring ben nelson. he serves in the senate for two terms and spent much of the past decade as president of the new school in new york city. we'll be right back. nyquil (st uffy

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welcome back to "hardball." supporters of gay marriage scored a big victory. a judge ruled that california's ban on same sex marriage, its proposition 8, is unconstitutional because it violates the civil rights of gays and lesbians. today's ruling reads, in part, "although the constitution permits communities for most laws, it requires there be at least a legitimate reason for the passage of a law that treats different classes of people differently. there was no reason proposition 8 could have been enacted." joining me is the lead attorney in the fight to overturn the

rule is david boies. and also the lieutenant governor of california gavin newsome, a big fighter of equality of marriage. is it now viewed, at least by the 9th circuit, that you have a constitutional right to marry someone of your gender? >> yes, certainly in california. the decision as a model of judicial restraint dealt with california, but if you look at the reasoning of the decision, that decision applies generally to every state in the 9th circuit. >> what does that mean to a nonlawyer? does it mean it will have to go to the supreme court or will it be accepted around the country as constitutional law? >> i think eventually this is going to have to go to the supreme court. whether this particular case goes to the supreme court is up to the supreme court. but i think eventually, you're going to have to go to the supreme court because even if this decision applies in the 9th circuit, it does not apply as

controlling law in other states who are not in the 9th circuit. >> who is your adversary who i? >> we are in the peculiar situation, the proponents have intervened to defend the proposition. they would carry the ball to the supreme court. lieutenant governor newsome you're a hero to the gay community because you were honoring gay marriages before it was legal. what does it mean in your part of the country, maybe the rest of the country as well? >> think about it, chris, in 2004 almost eight years ago this week, we began the process of marrying 4,000 couples and that moved to the california supreme court, which adjudicated in our favor. we sought actions for and against same sex marriage across the country. remarkable in 2004 the great

debate was civil unions we had gone through a debate of domestic partnerships. democrats weren't supportive of same sex marriage, i think a lot of pressure on those remaining elected officials, particularly the democratic party to step in the debate. >> this is one of the issues th that seems to be growing. gay marriage is -- civil unions and domestic partnerships are recognized in eight other states including california. gentlemen, i'm looking at age differences. among people 18-34, gallup poll, 53%, 70% of people under 34 support it. as you get older it slows down. what is your view, david as you watched the case proceed about the cultural fact, what is relevant about the cultural fact that it is more accepted?

>> i think what is relevant 20 years now people will have difficulty understanding what the fuss is about as people who grow up today can understand that 30 years ago blacks an whites were prohibited from getting married. this issue is going to be solved eventually by the demographics. what we need to do is we need to be sure, though, that we don't lose another generation of people, who are deprived of the right to get married. that's why the litigation is so important. it's not that there is any chance that eventually this battle won't be won but we need to win it for the people today, so they can enjoy the rights that they are entitled to under the constitution. >> i know there is an old express that the supreme court i think it was an old irish expression, mr. what is's his name, the supreme court follows the election returns. you said the demographics will change. how does the changing nature of public opinion and attitudes

change the supreme court ruling? >> eventually you will get people on the supreme court who have grown up in a culture of equality, eventually, the problem is that people my age are the people who are judges. we grew up in in an atmosphere of gay-bashing, there was extreme prejudice. now, the young people who have grown up knowing gays and lesbians their life know they are our brothers, sisters, doctors, lawyers, friends, colleagues, they won't be subjecting the people to discrimination. what we need to do eventually is that is going do move through, you look at the 70% of the people 34 and under favor same sex marriage. that is something that is going to move through this country like the baby boom moved through the country. we have to stop it now so the people don't have to wait 30 years in order to exercise these rights. >> i want to congratulate you, i

have believed in the case you brought here and my wife and i are both very strong on equality, i have to tell you i'm proud somebody roughly my age is leading the fight. governor newsome you were ahead of all of us, although i thought you were too far out in the old days, eight years ago, i have caught up to you, sir, and you deserve credit for being out there. >> absolutely. >> what is it like to finally be popular on an issue, governor? you're in the mainstream. >> took a decade. good to be mainstream and remember, 70 pairs of americans opposed enter racial marriage in 1967 when the u.s. supreme court adjudicated in favor of disbanding the 16 states that denied it. we're much further along. >> congratulations. david boyce and gavin newsome. the government's right to protect public health and

religion's right to practice what it preaches. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

let me finish tonight with this, about the obama administration's decision that requires part of the new health care bill that religious institutions, colleges, universities and hospitals provide full insurance coverage for birth control. including iud and morning after pills. in addition, strictly defined as

contraceptive. the catholic church teaches birth control and morning after pills, they view as abortive are morally wrong. they are required by law to pay for them. this is how the church sees it, something the church believes it morally cannot do. the conflict is between the right of the government to protect what it views as the public health and the right of a religion in, this case the catholic church, to practice the deepest moral believes in this free society one in which the first amendment does guarantee religious freedom. we are watching a real conflict here. it will be the duty of religious leaders to follow their consciences, the work of politicians, the president on down to do what they do best, work this out. there are millions of liberal catholics who did not wish for this conflict but can see with powerful clarity the validity. not about the number of catholics that use birth control or non-catholics that receive help from catholic charritiecha. this r